A question that usually involves some strong opinions:

Is an understanding of the Independant Chip Model (ICM) required for success in SNGs??

Be great to hear some opinions!

If you have yet to come across ICM check out the introduction article over at SNG Planet before you reply.

Independent Chip Model for SNGs

Looking forward to a lively debate!

Cheers, Mark

I personally started off by playing only Sng when i first started to play. My ROI rate is around 38% so I do consider myself a abover average to Good Sng player. I do not bring this up to brag but to give you my personal point of view.

I have always found SNG very easy. This is especially true at the 5$ - 20$ range. I belive this sytem over complicates SNG strategy for your basic recreational player.
I believe the best SNG strategy is to play basic ABC poker in the early stages of these tournies. Basically, bring your big guns to war philosophy. When a BIG pot is played make sure you have the best hand. If you play this style you should not be involved in a lot of pots and by the time 4 or 5 players remain your tight image will allow you to begin to steal several blinds.
one thing I o believe in once you steal enough blinds that several good players may disagree (feel free to express your agreement or disagreement) is i believe in freerolling a hand. What I mean by this is allow your money to get in bad. Calling a short stacked all in with 8-3 against someones AK is a little worse than 60-40 underdog. If you play solid enough at the begining of the SNG and steal several little pots you should have enough to be able to call short stack all ins with cards that are not so premium putting it nicely.

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Kickboyswoop

No, ICM knowledge is not required to beat the low stakes SNGs... but it helps!

Firstly I guess you have to define what "SNG Success" means and that is really down to the individual.

My dad plays the $1 SNGs on Stars and his definition of success is to enjoy himself and cash, maybe even win (maybe...). On the other end of the scale you have the 24 tabling grinders, who even in the low stakes play enough volume to substitute their winnings for a wage. Success for them is maintaining their $/hr and maybe giving themselves the option to increase in stakes. Other players have success in playing 1 or 2 regular SNGs at a time and generally have a nice ROI and play SNGs mainly for recreation or a change from their cash or MTT grind. They are successful and maintain a profit off SNGs which steadily builds up their rolls.

Ok there is a lot of grey between these 3 examples, I multi-table the tubos but do so for recreation and the challenge rather than to live off, but the point is "Success" is a very individual thing.

If you are happy playing a couple of the lower stakes tables, especially in the regular SNGs, where you can take your time, get reads and play "real" poker, then you don't need ICM and you can be a success. However especially if you intend on increasing up the stakes, playing the Turbos or to play SNGs in any kind of volume to get meaningful cash or measure of results, knowledge of ICM is a must.

There are two reasons for this: a) The information is out there about ICM, many players are adopting it and more tools are coming out to make the math easier to do. b) Using ICM correctly is unexploitable. This means that NO MATTER what you're opponents do, as long as you apply the principles correctly, they CANNOT get an edge over you.

Many of the very high games ($1k and $2k) SNGs have now dried up because nobody really has that big an edge over each other anymore. Players who play these now are mainly relying on rakeback or loyalty programs to provide their profit.

This is getting long and Mark has a ton of info over on SNG Planet on ICM for anyone who wants to know more, so I will finish by saying that if your aim is to become a strong and consistant SNG player then ICM knowledge is not just required but essential!

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Still Trying to Learn the Science & Discover the Art

Disagreeing!
Forget about ICM for a sec, and if you just go to Poker 101, you get three choices of action when you play a hand: raise, call, fold. While there are spots where calling is correct, usually it's widely agreed that raising or folding tend to be better options.

The scenario you have presented is kinda nuts, unless the short stack is so small that calling with any two is correct according to the math anyway. For a start, ok you admit you don't mind taking the worse of it which is fine, but how do you know a short stack is on such a specific hand as AK just because he is pushing. Surely if he's short he might well be playing a pocket pair in exactly the same fashion, which has 83o crushed for the best part. If he has 44-JJ do you really think he wants to see a flop if he is commited on it anyway?

Now if you push the 83o onto the shortstack then things change drastically because you now have the chance he can fold. By calling you are only giving yourself the chance to win a showdown, which is going to be kinda tough considering you're probably at best the wrong side of a 60/40. By raising into the shortstack, you not only have your chance of winning the hand by showdown but ALSO the chance he may fold. You now have 2 ways of winning, not just 1.

If you had $300 on a cash table, and $600 in your pocket, would you call a short stack's all in for $40 with 83o? Probably not. The chances are he has AK more often in this spot than a SNG due to the nature of the play, but there is no risk of anymore pressure being put on you because of rising blinds and your chips can easily be replaced. It would be an insane call and just throwing money away!

Now in a SNG you have a limited number of chips and rising blinds so maintaining your stack is more important. Ok you might get to eliminate a player but at least 60% of the time you will be doubling him. All in all calling here with 83o here is crazier than in a cash game!

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Still Trying to Learn the Science & Discover the Art

Very nice analysis Blue Fool. Well done
I'll be avoiding you in this Saturdays $250 added Tournament .

Thanks again for the detailed explanation of your thought process.


Jason

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I'm Not Lucky, I Have Good Karma !

Great explanations! Personal feeling is even those recreational players who choose not to get too involved with the math of ICM need to understand it for a simple reason.... some of your opponents will be using it against you!!

Cheers, Mark

sometiems it depends which sites you play sit n gos on.

Some sites you start with 1500 chips and others only 1000, some sites have 8 minute blinds and others 10 or 12 mins.

I prefer the slower structures where you can sit back and let the donkeys knock each other out unless you have good hands or hit good flops. You tend to find at least 2 or 3 on every table especially at the $5 level.

Once it gets to 5 or 6 players you only really need to double up once to make the top 3. Obviously nothing is guaranteed as you could have a good hand and still lose but playing tight at the start is definately the best way to make the cash regularly in sng's

It's funny that despite the supersaturation of ICM info out there (SNGPlanet and the Plan3t Gong blog being two good sources [Thanks Mark]) many players still are unfamiliar with the concepts. Once at the bubble of a $5 SNG I was down to about 5-6 big blinds and pushed with 67s from the button and was called by AKo in the big blind. I hit the spade flush and I got called everything but the son of god in the chat box. Not just from the player that I doubled-up through, either. I briefly defended myself but then remembered that the table is no place to give lessons. I placed second in the tourney (1st was the guy I won that pot from) and after the last hand I typed "good game," to which he replied "f*ck off donkey." -- Nice sportsmanship!

I think ICM strategies will improve anyone's game. My guess is that it becomes more important when you are multi-tabling more than 3 or 4 tables and have less opportunity to read the patterns of the others at your tables.

Very common situation sjclar.

Feel that there may have been some missing information about the relative hand strengths 'hot and cold' here, the odds are around 60/40 of course (depending on shared suits), but I am sure that many inexperienced players feel they should win far far more than that.

Certainly agree with not giving free lessons at the table - right here at the Poker Strategy Forums is the right place for helping each other improve our games!

Cheers, Mark

I really don't think it is required but I believe as a player progresses and moves up in levels it would be more info to make more educated decisions. Any edge that you can use to your advantage will help you in the long run.